Ecclesia is an ordained Methodist minister serving in a church in the Western Cape. She has, by all accounts, proven herself as a competent minister with a love for the people she ministers to and the God she feels called to serve as a full-time pastor. But, she is a lesbian. She has been involved with a woman for a while and at the end of last year she and her partner entered into a civil union to affirm their partnership legally.
She was then placed under suspension pending a disciplinary hearing after she was charged by her superintendent minister for contravening the disciplines of the Methodist Church of South Africa (MCSA).
The hearing happened last night, while a group of us took part in a silent prayer vigil (some at the church where the hearing was happening), praying for wisdom, strength and God's love to prevail whatever the outcome.
The verdict was delivered a half hour after the trial and Ecclesia was suspended from the Methodist Church. She has no station to minister and will be without income until the Church has resolved the homosexual "issue" and decided on whether gay and lesbian people have a place in their Church, more specifically as leaders in the church.
Now, I obviously have an opinion in this.
I understand that Ecclesia broke the rules. She works for a religious institution (for want of a better phrase) that has ruled that ministers may not enter into a same-sex civil union until the church has decided if gay people are actually really welcome in the church. They may say that gay people are welcome to attend services on a Sunday, but at this stage gay people are not welcome to play an active role in the life of the church. So, in essence, we can add to their numbers (and help them play affirmative) but not to their direction and mission to actively work with others as they journey in relationship with Christ.
The cruel part of the verdict is that they have offered, what seems to be, a glimmer of hope - that she will be able to be a minister when they make a decision on gays and, obviously, only if that decision is pro-gay. The reality is that they have cut her off from the church with no income to wait for a decision that will probably still take a number of years to debate and finalise. Personally I find this cruel and inhumane.
I remember a minister going through a divorce in the Methodist church. He was suspended with full pay, given counselling and allowed back into the fold. I've seen it with a few ministers. I've seen Ray McCauley (granted he is not a Methodist minister but an apparently religious man) marry his second wife who had a few husbands before him.
And the church wonder why we cry foul.
I understand she broke the rules. But what you have, in essence, done, dear wise ministers of the church, is ostracised a group of people who are longing for a place in your community. Instead of taking a legalistic approach, you could have offered at least some support so that God's love could prevail, not the laws of a church.
I have looked at the facebook wall and these kind of responses sadden me. And I hope people from the Methodist church read them, because this is no longer just about Ecclesia. It is about a group of people who never chose their sexuality but want to live a life that is honest, transparent and open. Clearly you prefer repression, silence and dishonesty. Or maybe the back of the gays that are quite obviosuly giving you a headache right now.
These are a few of the responses:
Maybe religions should establish a motto along the lines of "challenge and we will damn you".... I gave up church a long long time ago, the continuous flow of double standards and hypocrisy just made me ill.I could continue, but I do hope that the Methodist church see the significance in their decision. What you do to Ecclesia has ripple effects for a whole number of people who want to be an active part of the church, and as Ecclesia and a number of others (including myself) have proved, we have a lot to offer and a deep love for God that we fight daily to maintain.
...we all "know" racism is a far worse crime than homophobia... why would they care about a bunch of "deviants" and "sinners" like us?
We are hurt and angered by the outcome of yesterday's hearing. God loves each one of us EQUALLY, who are these human beings to think that they can play GOD? How can they call themselves Christians if their hearts are so wrong? How can we have respect for a Church, if they show no respect towards us?????
This is exactly the reason why I don't want to go to church anymore! Incidentally I'm also a Methodist.
God is love. You know, the day I turned my back on the church is the day I came closer to God. How can any living being decide what God's understanding of love is.
What happened to Nelson Mandela's wonderful words at his inauguration: "Never, never and never again shall it be that this beautiful land will again experience the oppression of one by another"? How is it not oppression to insist, simply because of sexual orientation, that people who love each other may not get married (or even "joined in ...a civil union") until the Church may or may not allow it ? What happened to the Church that once fought so bravely for Nelson Mandela to be able say those powerful words as President of a land that once reduced him to a 2nd class citizen?
This is an opportunity for the MCSA to resolve this internal conflict and do what is right - to recognize our dignity and equality and our worthiness as people. A time to say - "more than 'tolerance' - we accept you and we love you as our equals
You tell us we are not welcome. We believe in a God who says "come all". We will not keep quiet until you are open to that. But until then, I personally will not set foot through one of your doors.
27 comments:
**comments to news24 article about gay people in SA***
JAN - Please go and have a look at what the Word of God says about gay/lesbian relationships. God destroyed Sodom & Gomora due to such relationships. Go think what you are doing to children. What example you set to others. God made ADAM and EVE, NOT adam and steve!
lilian 4/1/2009 12:06:51 PM
@JAN,
Do they teach all Christians that line in church these days. The whole Adam and Steve thing is really getting tired. Plus, God did not create Adam and Eve. Evolution created man. And on your point of look at what it says in the Bible, I refer you to this comment that was made on the article "using rape to cure lesbians" Here goes: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them. 1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. 4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination? 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here? 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
You twat.
Anonymous - hehehe... yeah, I've read that before. Does speak volumes about a Bible that's contextual, but in essence about love, not law.
Thanks for sharing!
but it speaks about the people of the church and how they use the bible (and their own laws) to substantiate some actions and not others...
the church is subjective in all their views...the love factor does not even feature...although they hide underneath it...even if it means oppressing others.
who would want to be a part of that???
Well, firstly it's not all facets of the Church. I know a number of people who have found a place in "open-minded" churches, and some in so-called gay churches.
It's difficult to be in relationship with god outside of a church. some place huge value on combining their relationship with God and fellowship with others. We can't judge them.
Once you realise that the Bible is contextual and open to different interpretations (some misguided0 you let people work out their own salvation. it's law and fundamentalism that's religions greatest downfall. (Exactly why Jesus came I suppose).
Wow. Im not even any form of Christian and I just feel sad right now. Well youve got it at last - Finally a short comment. I have nothing to say.
cm from dreary jhb - It does leave one a bit gobsmacked hey... I'm really sad about it. I expected their response, but expected some kind of support for her. The fact that she's been left cold speaks volumes.
Why is it difficult to have a relationship with God outside of church??
Anonymous - for some it is. for many I think. Fellowship feeds our relationship with God, because so often god can be found in people. It isn't the basis of a relationship with God but a way to grow. For some more than others. even reading books by Christian authors is a type of fellowship and thus church.
Growing in community is sometimes more helpful than growing alone (depending on the person and time of their lives).
A friend once described the relationship with God as a triangle between God, me and fellow believers. That model works for me. doesn't mean it has to be for everyone else.
The point is - anyone who wants to be a part of that community in relationship with God shouldn't be denied because they are perceived as other. It's exactly that construct that Jesus destroyed in his time on earth.
I am no minister and not very knowledgable when it comes to quoting scripture, but what I know for sure, is that I serve a loving God. One that does not condemn people He created and that it is not my place to judge, I was called to love everybody (my neighbour - in case you bible punchers have forgotten) the God I serve does not create people that are not acceptable to Him. I know a lot of so called straight people who live far more sinful lives than some of my gay friends. It is not your sexual orientation, but the way you choose to live your life, be it straight or gay, that makes it sinful. Stop, look around and love all of those around you with the same love and only then can you call yourself a christian.
I have little to say really, I am not surprised by this at all.
I do find it strange that she decided on the civil union knowing it (in essence) went against the current *rules* of her employer.
I am not going to debate *the rules* right now though. Been around this track a few times and I believe you know my position.
As you say, giving (what I believe) to be false hope is inexcusable.
Tertia - I'm on the same page
Mel - for me, it's not even about the rules. Yeah, she got married to a woman when she wasn't allowed to - but did it warrant her expulsion (because that's essentially what it is). I know of many ministers that have broken the rules - but it's this one that has been met with the harshest sentence.
She shouldn't have married. She broke the rules. She sinned. He or she who is without sin throw the first stone.
this did not warrant a firing, but a good opportunity to explore dialogue and perhaps move her to a new portfolio out of the limelight for a while...
I think the track is far-stretching. not something we keep going round.
sigh
I know there is a God whenever I look at a sunrise, climb a mountain, look out over the sea, see the full moon. I don't need to go to church to worship.
And incidents like this remind me of why I won't.
@ Jan - maybe you should go and read the context in which the Sodom & Gomora destruction occurred. their crime, their sin was one of inhospitality and not homosexuality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the term homosexuality was only coined in the 19th century. how then could the ancient greek and hebrew texts have been referring to homosexuality when the word did not even exist!?!?!?!? it is narrow-minded, ill-informed people like you that lead to people like me throwing away the institution of the church and finding a more real relationship with our Creator outside of the contraints of "man-made" religion. you hypocrite! how can you profess to be a Christian and be so judgemental? as far as i can remember the judgement was happening in a much different place by a far greater person and that person is definitely not you!!!
OL - it's a sad truth...
Anonymous... sheesh, dear old Jan is really getting it in the neck... not sure he/she warrants that much attention :)
Okay, I am not very informed on this issue so forgive my ignorance...are there gay ministers running methodist churches? Is there a precedent or something? Has she been singled out?
I have a rather simplistic view on employment - tow the employers line or find another job or at least have a plan B if you gonna push boundaries.
Feel free to throw tomatoes ...maybe I should stay out of this one rather. ;-)
mel - hehe... no stay in it... dialogue is good. Yah, we forget that it is just a job because on so many levels it's not and in so many instances it is. If it was just a job then she would have warnings and the option of CCMA. This is a blatant firing saying she could not get civil-unioned pending a decision (that has been on the cards for ages), so essentially the decision has been made until a pro-gay decision is made. This way the church keeps hanging back saying it's okay, but it's not.
So it's forcing their hand to some extent...
i just reread my comment to Mel and if you understand it then you know me a lot better than you give yourself credit for... that was a ramble at it's best...
but stay and play!
From one rambler to another....I *totally* got your response to me. The first time I read it. I think we may be kin. ;-)
that reminds of a song from Rent -
Let he among us without sin be the first to condemn....
La vie Boheme!!!
And then my favourite -
To Sodomy -Its between God and me...
To S&M...
La Vie Boheme....
Sorry - totally off the topic... but thats my contribution.
I'm back, but only in comment form.
Boy-oh-boy, I love it when it get's nice and gritty!
Rambler, given our own very detailed discussions on religion, church and belief, I think I need not share them here... but I do wish to share one (hopefully brief point).
The comment that draws on the various rules in Leviticus reflects a very clear shift in the moral Zeitgeist of the modern (read Western) man from the time of Levi'. Even, Lincoln would be seen as a racist by today's standards.
The 'teachings' in the bible are used selectively by many (in particular the Church). If the faithful were to read in any great detail all of it, they would no doubt find it falls wayward of our own modern understanding of god and his/ her love. Where pray-tell is the 'truth'?
I sometimes wonder what the result would be if those who 'know' the Bible and are considered the bearers of his word tried to snip out all the pieces they no longer consider valid. One thing is certain, it would be a very very different book from the one that is published today.
It makes me particularly sad that today, we have a person who in her love for god chose to do his / her work and spread his / her love. Many of the faithful would say she was called. And those same faithful would say - "if you are called you must follow in his ways."
And now, in their wisdom, those who presumably know his love better than she are able to banish her until they can decide what to make of her deep love for someone else - whith who she is prepared to spend a comitted life.
I do not subscribe to a faith or a god for that matter, because no matter what his / her hand may wish for me, the hand of man will change it to suit his own needs to the point that they will decide that if god touches me, i will believe it will be to break me down.
So many human beings dying every day because of the lack of food and other basic needs, yet, they love to make a fuss about the whole being-gay subject. When will humans learn?
Anyway, great blog. Loved it.
Hey Andrew...
Get the facts straight!!!!!
You erroneously wrote " after she was charged by her superintendent minister for contravening the disciplines of the Methodist Church of South Africa"
Get the facts straight man...
she was NOT charged by her Superntendent, he had no alternative after having received a letter from Ecclesia via another minister that she had "married" a woman, he had no alternative to inform the church authorities (CA) as to what had transpired in his Circuit. The CA brought the charges against Ecclesia. Please don't "blame" the Superintendent for something he didn't do... what he did do was do the right thing by not ignorng what transpired in his circuit.
Now that you know the facts..are you suggesting the Superintendent shouldn't have done the right thing and ignored what happened? You know that had he done so, he would have been in breach of the MCSA's own rules and discipline.
C'mon man.. you've been around long enough to know that like every organisation, even the hurch has rules and proesses it has to follow.. other it wouldn't be allowed to function by law!!
So please aplogise and retract your statement... I dare you. By the way, if you're man enough, why don't you send a copy of your this blog to the MCSA's executive secretary AND your Bishop. Or maybe you don't want to get suspended... and you want to keep your job????
Anyhow, now Ecclesia has been suspended as you report... I think it behooves you to rally everyone who supports her stand against the church regime and give her monetary support so that she an maintain the standard of living she was accustomed to.
Okay... Um, let's get the facts straight. I'm not Andrew or employed by the methodist church. I'm a journalist with an interest in the story (a personal interest too) and have based the story on the facebook group as I stated.
Perhaps you should get your facts straight before making accusations to people who do work for the church? And anonymously at that.
Poor show
Who the heck was the last anonymous - 'you better get your ass up and out!!!' (In a sassy african american female accent)....
Im extremely intelligent but choose to respond with playground sentiments here....
Go to hell....
And who the heck is Andrew? If he is single and not straight send him my way....
Bit of a rollercoaster ride reading all this - I dunno whether the dialogue got lost or if I missed it?
In the end it felt more about squabbeling over who is right and who is wrong than about how Ecclesia must be feeling right now. No-one seems to have considered her emotional state. She pastored people that she loved, cared and taught. People who had become her family - how she must feel to suddenly be deprived of that in a heartbeat.
So sad that the real person gets lost in our desire to be right.
Thats my 5c worth...and all that I have to say about that! Caio! L.
Oh, thought i should say that my comment was not aimed at you Clive...but rather at other obvious comments that are more passionate about systems, rules and arguing than people... Ciao.L.
Tertia, well said. My quibble is not with God. It is with idiots.
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